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Ramez - Spiritual - Knowledge

Started by LovingNeighbor at 03-31-2006 11:08 PM. Topic has 0 replies.

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   03-31-2006, 11:08 PM
LovingNeighbor is not online. Last active: 7/31/2008 12:55:54 AM LovingNeighbor



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Joined on 02-10-2006
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What is Ramez?
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Shalom all,

For those of you who don't know what Ramez is I will first explain what it is part of. PaRDeS hebrew for paradise. It is also an acronym for: Peshat, Ramez, Darash, Sod. These are known as the 4 levels of understanding. Ramez is the second level. It is tied into the spiritual text. In the beginning God Created the Heavens and the Earth. I would understand this to mean the two witnesses. In the Torah all truth is said to come from the mouth of two or more witnesses. Moses called heaven and Earth to witness against the children of Israel. The Ramez is the second witness. The first is the Peshat or Literal text, surface text. The Ramez is the second level or the Spiritual text. They bare witness to the truth in Torah. Now if this sounds wierd just look at how Messiah taught his disciples, he spoke in parables (riddles) which were a surface story. Underlying that story was the Ramez or spiritual text that he told his disciples after everyone left and they drew near asking him to declare the parable. He then would give all the definitions or this word = that word. They would plug them back in in order of the original story and there was the unseen text or ramez. Now if you haven't read my study on the eyes that see I would suggest it because it goes into exactly how messiah taught verse by verse. Here is a link to that study:

http://www.loveoftorah.com/torahforum/forums/16/ShowPost.aspx#16

Now for those who have heard of or studied the Torah on multiple levels let me say I do not agree with some of the teachings on what people think the Ramez is. Traditional Judiasm sees this as "a hint" in the literal text. I disagree. I think they are literal minded and trying to apply a literal thinking to the surface text. You can have a understanding of the Peshat (literal) without it being actual darash. Many will call things ramez or darash but it is really just understandings of the literal text. I believe the Ramez is an actual second text under the literal or Peshat text. Just as our spirit dwells in the flesh it is not flesh they are two seperate things. Many people who only understand things literally who don't really study the ramez will tell you if you share something in ramez with them, they will say oh that's a good midrash or darash. Basically telling you that doesn't seem to violate torah, and sounds nice, but they can't see it with there fleshly eyes so they discount it as not really in the text or not legitimate.  Expect this. I have not studied the Zohar and wouldn't suggest it to someone not real founded in torah and in ramez, because you won't know if it's legitimate if you don't know how to test things on different levels, and that is what is happening with many believers. If you think Paul is confusing you will be lost in the Zohar. Some may be right and some may be wrong. I have studied this way for years so I can see some things in the Zohar but have not read alot of it, and the danger is pagan theology mixed in. The 4 levels of Torah all support each other and do not teach strange doctrine, They are all built on foundation of Torah. Just like a 5th grader wouldn't walk into a calculus class and know what was being really said, you must approach things slowly and carefully. This is not for those who want the next new teaching or fantastic idea, that is a trap of pride. But I beleive YHWH built his book this way to encourage study and a diligent hand in his word. I don't think you can really appreciate what Messiah and Paul are saying without a good understanding of the 2 witnesses of text, it is the context of most of their conversations I believe. When trying to make sense of it only literally you run into countless problems, as even many of Messiah's disciples did when he said unless you eat of my flesh and drink of my blood you will not enter the kingdom. He was speaking in ramez and those trying to take it literal walked out because they said it is against Torah to drink blood.

I feel it is not "an extra" to study in the Peshat and Ramez but essential. Without the 2 witnesses I don't believe you can be established. Studying only the literal can leave you like the pharisess who as Messiah said were like a white washed tomb. Clean on the outside and yet there was no spirit on the inside so they were dead. This is why I believe Paul was so criticized by his peers because many of them would only study the surface text and he would say that they should move past the flesh to the spirit so they would have both, he was talking about establishing Torah like Messiah in both flesh and Spirit, Christians take this as the law is done away with but they never had the law and were not the audiance he was telling that message to, but to the jews. They were to be established in the ramez. This is also why he admonishes for the new believers to go learn the letter. But people have been twisting his words to be both universal and misdirected so that neither party recieved the message they needed. I encourage you to study the different levels, remember that no teaching can go against torah in the ramez or it is not valid. So you have nothing to lose, if at the end of the day you want to think it is just good comentary you have lost nothing. But I think once your eyes are opened to the spirit of Torah you will take hold. I encourage you to look further as all of Messiah's disciples did after each public meeting. Shalom!


A disciple should diligently search for the truth and humbly deny and reconsider it's possession.
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