Shalom all,
This is a response to a post on another forum I wrote but thought I would share because it explains how I see Jew and Gentile.
We are all going to be novices when Messiah returns. Remember the only way to feel better and not be as wishy washy is to study the Torah yourself. The purpose of a forum is not to learn from one another, it is to compare what you learned to glean more and test your understanding. The Torah is where you should be doing your learning for your self. through YOUR studies then your going straight to the source not trying to understand other men's understanding. This is what I beleive Messiah was saying in the parable of the house built on the sand or the rock. The seed of Avraham are the sand acording to biblical definition and Messiah and the Word is the rock. If you build your foundation and understanding on the teachings of other men, even if they are great bible students you don't have a real foundation, you must dig down past the sand (decendants of Avraham) to the rock(the Word) and build upon it, the sand being upon helping you look at your own understanding grounded in Torah and words of Messiah. This is why we must go beyond just looking at what Judiasm does and go to the truth of Torah.
OK, i may as well post my interpretation of the place of Jews and Gentiles maybe it will be helpful. We can get a great picture out of examining one set of verses that is comparing these two people instead of people posting random scriptures trying to fuse them together.
Rom 3:29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
first thing to look at is this is about being justified, not sanctified, both will be sanctified but justified is to be rendered free(like the mixed multitude coming out of Egypt) the word means innocent,free, justified. the key in reading this next verse is to look carefully to know what it is saying and to who. He is saying he will justify the circumcision(Jews) BY faith. The word here in reference to the relationship of faith is the word explaining how they approach faith. the word BY here means origin. The Jews were born into their faith starting with as it says earlier the oracles of God the Torah. the next group of people is the uncircumcised ( gentile but I believe also includes scattered Israel) who came to faith THROUGH or channeled not by birth but in spirit. They come in like Efrayim through Joseph who adds to Israel from outside by taking an egyptian wife. In the same note of the stranger clause of Isaiah 56 anyone can join but it is not of birth but THROUGH faith in Messiah. So now we establish the way that these 2 people come to Faith. No simply imagine Messiah in the middle like the tree of life in the garden. representing both spirit and letter of the law of torah hes is one established by two witnesses, both his spirit and flesh obeyed, his faith and works, the inside of the cup and the outside. heaven(spiritual) and earth(flesh) are witness that he is true, therefore being called the TRUTH. he did both. And now we have 2 peoples one who is born with the works,letter of the law (Jews) who to be established by two witnesses need to find the spirit of the law, much like Messiah said they washed the outside but the inside was not right. They like the son in the prodigal son who were always with their Father needed to have what the prodigal son had, the desire and love and right spirit to just be able to dwell with their Father. They had the right spirit but not the right works they ran off and did forget the rules of their Father. While the other always had the Father as he said when the other son asked why he didn't even get a kid and the other on his return got a fatted calf. Well he said you always had me. But they didn't have the right spirit towards their Father although he was always close. So back to the verse
Rom 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
Next it talks about making void the law, but who is he talking about again he uses the word THROUGH meaning he's refering to the gentiles, so he says to them that though the Jews have access to Faith BY birth and have every right to come to Messiah as he is their brother. The Gentiles have access to Messiah THROUGH Spirit, having a spirit of love towards him.
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
The most important part of this is that both are only justified or allowed access or freed form Egypt(sin) by these means, Neither is sanctified(cleansed) and prepared for acceptance in the kingdom. They both are coming from opposite ends to get the the middle (Messiah) the tree of life,Truth(being established by two witnesses) THis is why I beleive Pauls is so misunderstood because he seems to at some time be speaking for the law or against the law. I think he is talking as here to two crowds, one who being born in the law need to look for the spirit of the law, but as Messiah says they strain at a gnat(the minutia of the letter of the law and yet swallow the cammel miss the big thing(the spirit of the law awider application) He said you Tithe but leave the weightier things undone you should do the other and not leave these small matters undone. So he says keep the Spirit of the law and also the letter one does not forsake the other or you only have one witness and therefore no truth. When he says they should be as children is because they come in a spirit of love, compared to the Pharisees who were indepth bible scholars, this is another model of the Jew Gentile, the children are like the Gentiles who draw near out of love. but as children they must grow and learn the letter also so they will have two witnesses heaven(spirit) and earth(flesh). Look at the verse he says do the gentiles who come in Through Spirit make the law void(also replace or downplay the Jew) GOD FORBID!
yea we establish the Law. This means they keep the right spirit and with that spirit add the letter of the law. Now they are established(always meaning 2 witnesses, the word establish or truth always tells you something has 2 witnesses) as a side note it also is a prophecy about the gathering of Israel bring scattered Israel and the stranger together with their Jewish Brothers and the strangers gathered to them as two sticks and being established together as the two witnesses in the Hand of Messiah! Now reread this verse and May YHWH open your eyes to see the wonderous things in his Word! Shalom
Shalom,
Sorry after reading my post I don't know if I explained it plainly enough drawing from things I have already studies you may not know all the references I'm saying, Read the story of the prodigal son, read it with the assumtion that the prodical son is gentiles(including scattered Israel who were once sons and the strangers who will also gather themselves to Israel) Also the Son who stayed with the Father as Judah and the strangers and Israelites dwelling with them.
My next reference is the children, coming from when Messiah was teaching and told his disciples to not forsake the children from coming to him for such is the Kingdom of Heaven(spirit)
The next point was there are 2 words being used in the scriptures I qouted in romans, in hebrew BY and THROUGH are the same word. In Greek they could have used the same word for both of these verses but they didn't and that is what one must notice. the first use is BY and the root meaning is origin, the second is Through Root meaning channeled.
Finnaly, there is much more here but I don't want the worlds longest post award so i just skimmed the surface. But he says there is ONE God. Yes the hebrew word Echad meaning one I beleive is a model of truth also meaning one true God. One means established meaning they have both sides they are in the middle. he is ONE with the Father because he is established with the Father. Found True by two witnesses Heaven and Earth. He said I would that you were ONE with me as I am ONE with my Father. And as his bride two become ONE established together. If we are his body(what adam also said to Eve flesh of my flesh) then when he rejoins Jew and gentile the gathering and rejoining as one. (another reason modern Israel and Jews are not the Israel of Bible. And the second model of each of them being established in their faith in both letter and spirit of the law. Anyway I'll stop I know I can go on.
Shalom