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Understanding the 4 Levels

Started by LovingNeighbor at 04-22-2006 1:12 AM. Topic has 0 replies.

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   04-22-2006, 1:12 AM
LovingNeighbor is not online. Last active: 7/31/2008 12:55:54 AM LovingNeighbor



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Joined on 02-10-2006
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Traditional Understanding of the 4 levels vs. My Understanding
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Here is a link to a website that has a traditional view of PRDS. Right click and select open in new window

http://www.nazarene.net/Hermeneutics/Pardes.html

Where i differ is they see the peshat as the literal and so do I, they see the ramez as basically just that there may be other implications. where they get the "hint" idea as if it is such a small level. The problem I have with this way of thinking is that I see the ramez as the spiritual text, the Spiritual definitions Messiah gave when he said the seed was the word of God, and the field was the world, and the harvest was the end of the world. This wasn't a hint, and traditional jewish thought would have these definitions as the darash or allegorical. But they basically skip over the 2nd level. I believe this is a mistake as the 2nd witness is actually the "true witness" as Messiah is called the true witness. because all truth is established by two witnesses, and it is the second witness that establishes truth. this second unseen text is the ramez. the darash then is called aleggorical, but they take it literally instead of realizing it's about relations. See where darash means to search, and darash, darash means to search diligently or search both witnesses this is what the judges were told to do diligently enquire before making a ruling.

Darash is therefore relating the two witnesses. The literal text "peshat" and the spiritual text "ramez" and the darash is the understanding of how they relate. so to untangle the traditional thought of PRDS which I think is flawed because they are thinking Peshat minded in how they work with each level and therefore are not rightly dividing the word of God, they are mixing their peas and carrots so to speak. they don't put a real destinction between the literal and the spiritual because they don't legitimatize that there is a whole other text exactly under the first one. Like Messiah explains when he like a algebra equasion gives us all the values so we can construct the unseen text underneath the original just like an interlinear bible. Then we can read it and study it also. It is not just a thought or hint there might be something else there, nor is it just an understanding of what the peshat or literal text is trying to point to. Because both of those is searching for only a literal "understanding."

the fact is there are two witnesses and though they are speaking of one concept, there is a legitamate exact spiritual text and when we figure it out by using the scripture as I explain in my study on eyes that see, you can plug in the values and search for the relationship or understanding of the two witnesses. Then you have the darash. But meany peshat minded people think they are studying in different levels when they really aren't they are on one level and trying to figure it out.

Many people call a understanding a darash or midrash. You can have a darash or understanding of the peshat. It doesn't mean you have the darash level of that text. You can have a darash or understanding of the ramez text and not have the actual darash level. You can't really have the true darash level of a text until you have both witnesses. darash is the third witness. If you don't legitimatize the levels and understand they are seperate levels you can't really get PRDS. it's like the waters there are the land (peshat), the waters (ramez), the waters beneath the earth (darash) where both earth and water is, and the waters from heaven (sod)  until you rightly divide the levels you can't understand them. Many times I hear people say oh that is a good darash. Meaning to them that's a nice understanding. It doesn't violate scripture but it isn't exactly in scripture so it's just a nice thought. This is because they don't legitimatize the ramez as a reall level and that it isn't something just made up it is exact as the ragular scriptures. But this is always how spiritual is if they can't see it they can't trust it. This is the concept of walking on water. Only one disciple put his foot out and learned to trust in the unseen. Everyone want's to just stick with the peshat or literal text and just like the comfort of the boat they won't study anything they can't see.

So this is where I differ from the traditional thoughts  on what PRDS is because in many ways they just believe in the peshat and think the other levels are there to help you get a better understanding of the peshat. But the Torah is spiritual and Messiah said God is spiritual and so we must learn to worship him spiritually, well bible study is believed by judiasm to be one of the highest levels of worship. So I beleive we are to study his scriptures this way also. This may seem scary but it's only the fear of putting your foot on the water and stepping out of the boat. The funny thing was the boat was never meant to hold you anyway. This is why I believe Messiah said when the waves were crashing that they lacked faith. Because all their trust was in what they could see ( peshat) and they didn't realize the goal of Torah was a changed spirit not just walking out commandments, because Messiah said the outside(peshat) of the cup was clean of the pharisees, but the inside(ramez) was filthy. Ramez doesn't do away with the peshat it establishes it. Anyway, this is where I differ and I will be explaining more indepth the differences in later threads.Shalom!


A disciple should diligently search for the truth and humbly deny and reconsider it's possession.
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